Radio Interview – ABC Radio, AM with Sabra Lane
E&OE
Subjects: Bondi Terror Attack; Tougher Hate Speech Laws.
SABRA LANE, HOST: Michelle Rowland is the Federal Attorney-General and she sits at the National Security Committee of Cabinet. Attorney-General, thanks for joining AM. Before we discuss the Government's proposed changes, the former High Court Chief Justice Robert French intervened in the debate on the weekend about inquiries into the Bondi massacre, saying a Commonwealth led Royal Commission was needed and there was a moral imperative to do so. Did Cabinet or National Security Committee of Cabinet discuss his advice?
MICHELLE ROWLAND, ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, firstly, can I start by expressing my condolences to the victims, the families and friends and all Australians who've been impacted by this horrific act of terrorism against not only our Jewish community, but on our Australian way of life as well. I won't specifically go to what is discussed obviously in Cabinet and NSC, but I will say this: the focus of this Government is on action in the wake of this terrible tragedy. I note that there are stakeholders who have views on a Royal Commission. What I will say is that there is a Royal Commission that is going to be undertaken. NSW has made that clear and all cooperation and information as will be required by that Royal Commission will be provided by the Commonwealth. In particular the rapid review being undertaken by Richardson, which will report in April next year, will be an important part of that.
LANE: You are the nation's first legal officer. Would you consider the merits of Justice French's arguments?
ROWLAND: Reasonable minds will differ, and we've seen that as well, including some of the commentary by Brett Walker, for example, who is very well respected. He notes that the duplicity of a Royal Commission being done in tandem with NSW is one that is may have questionable merit, and also some of these questions about what a state Royal Commission would be able to achieve.
LANE: Still, to the point of the question, did you even consider his argument, or did you just dismiss it outright?
ROWLAND: As I said, this is a Government that is focused on delivery and on action. We have made it clear that we will be undertaking a comprehensive response. In terms of having a Royal Commission, one is being undertaken, and the Government has a policy imperative here and an imperative from the community to take action, not to spend years undertaking an inquiry to determine what may need to be done. We know that things need to be done. We need to get to a landing on some of those issues that are being examined by Richardson, which will report not in years, but in April next year. That is what we are focused on.
LANE: To the package of reforms the Government's suggesting. If they'd been in place since the October 7th atrocities in Israel how many people would police have pursued through the courts here? Would it have stopped the Bondi attack?
ROWLAND: Well, I can't answer that in terms of hypotheticals. What I can say is, in the previous term, and it has been implemented this year, the Government has had a substantial package of reform when it comes to hate speech and also action on things like doxxing. But we have seen that there is hateful rhetoric that has escalated and that culminated last Sunday in this appalling act that claimed innocent lives. What is clear here is that needs to be some significant changes to the Commonwealth Criminal Law. I will say to your listeners that this will test the limits of what is legally permissible. But the outcome here is to ensure that we have a situation where we do not have hate speech that targets even one group alone, but ensures that we have the capacity to address extremists who are operating just within the limits of the law. So, they craft rhetoric below the criminal threshold. They can, for example, display prohibited symbols under the guise of ignorance and in particular, radicalising children at alarming rates.
LANE: Well, just on that point, I was going to say. Sorry, just on that point alone, you're saying that they operate just below the law. Well, how many people then would police or ASIO have pursued if these laws had been in place since 2023?
ROWLAND: Well, again, I can't answer in terms of hypotheticals here, but we have done the analysis, we have done the consultation.
LANE: But if you've done the analysis, surely you would know.
ROWLAND: Well, let me tell you this. If you want some numbers, I'll tell you this. There's been 120 people convicted of terrorism offences since 2001, and in that period, 10 of them were children. Today, we've got 17. 17 of the 33 individuals before the courts are minors. That gives you an indication of the unprecedented and deeply concerning trend in the rise of radicalisation in young people. This is a time when we need unity and we need urgency and we need the Parliament to come together to support these changes.
LANE: With the proposed law targeting adults who seek to radicalise children, again, how frequently would they have been used during the past two years?
ROWLAND: Well, again, I cannot answer in hypotheticals and I won't attempt to. We know, as I have just outlined to you in the statistics that we have, and we know also from the warnings that our security agencies have provided us about the ease of radicalisation that happens, particularly in the online environment, that this is an area that needs to be addressed. That is why we are taking action and we call on the entire parliament to support this.
LANE: The Prime Minister said yesterday at the media conference that you were at that ASIO and the AFP chiefs spoke with Cabinet yesterday about the lessons learnt. What are those lessons?
ROWLAND: Well, again, I'm not going to go into the detail of that, just as the Prime Minister didn't go into detail yesterday. But what I will say is that it is very clear that there are actions that need to be taken, and that is reflected in the package that we have announced as a Cabinet.
LANE: Michelle Rowland, thanks for joining AM.
ROWLAND: Pleasure.
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