Radio Interview – ABC Radio Sydney, Breakfast with Emma Crowe

E&OE

Subjects: Bondi Terror Attack; Tougher Hate Speech Laws; Travel.

EMMA CROWE, HOST: Well, as pressure mounts for a Commonwealth Royal Commission into the Bondi terror attack, the Federal Government's broader response to last week's events continues. It's announced a review into the performance of law enforcement and intelligence in the lead up to the attack, as well as a suite of tighter gun control proposals. Michelle Rowland is Australia's Attorney-General. She joined the Prime Minister at a press conference yesterday where new measures were announced. Attorney-General, good morning.

MICHELLE ROWLAND, ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Good morning.

CROWE: We'll get to the substance of what was announced yesterday in just a moment. But should there be a Commonwealth Royal Commission into the Bondi attack?

ROWLAND: Well, I'd like to start by firstly expressing my condolences to the victims, the families and friends and all Australians who've been impacted by this truly horrific act of terrorism against not only our Jewish community, but on all Australians and on our Australian way of life. The Government's focus is on action and that is our policy imperative here. There is a Royal Commission that will be undertaken and that's been announced by the NSW Government. As the Prime Minister said, the Commonwealth is working in lockstep with NSW. We're going to support whatever action the NSW Government takes regarding the Royal Commission that they've announced. I'm sure that that will be looking deeply at all the issues that are raised. An important input to that is going to be the rapid review that has been announced into our federal intelligence and law enforcement agencies about whether they've got those appropriate powers and processes. That will be reporting by April next year, so, that is urgent. The need for law reform in not only the areas of gun reform, but also in terms of hate speech that I will be taking carriage of that is urgent. But all of this will be capable of being fed into the NSW Royal Commission that has been announced and that is appropriate.

CROWE: Yes. The Prime Minister says the Richardson Review is already underway and the findings of that review will feed into this state based Royal Commission. But why not both? Why not get on with your own review and continue with your own reforms while letting a Commonwealth Royal Commission look at this from every possible angle?

ROWLAND: Well, the Royal Commission that has been announced by NSW will have very broad powers to be able to do that. And again, I will stress that the policy imperative of the Government here is action, urgent action. That is what the public expects as well, that is what we know is required in terms of our law reform agenda. But I'll also just make it very clear - there has been a Royal Commission announced, NSW will be undertaking that and the Commonwealth will be cooperating with that. Let us remember too, the amount of time that that takes. That is a simple fact that Royal Commissions take years, and one of this nature, one would expect, would be taking a long period of time. In that period, we need to ensure that we've got action not only in terms of our security agencies, which will report by April, but also in terms of law reform.

CROWE: I know the Prime Minister has said it's a time for urgency and unity, not division and delay. I hear what you're saying about wanting to act. Senator Andrew Bragg was on this program yesterday, though, saying a Commonwealth Royal Commission would have the powers to look right into government and look at this government's role, if any, into the increase in antisemitism. He even went so far as to saying, you know, what's the Government trying to cover up? Why not just let the Royal Commission happen? Get on with your own work as well and the state based Royal Commission and let the other Royal Commission happen, you know, to let people have a look at what's been done if you are proud of your record so far?

ROWLAND: Well, if the argument is that we should have a duplication of Royal commissions, I would certainly not think that that is something that is going to be productive in terms of achieving that urgent action that is required. I would also point out, you know, as experts have said as well, that it is not true that a Royal Commission undertaken by NSW as a state won't be able to give authoritative findings and will be somehow limited in its powers to be able to achieve what would be expected from a Royal Commission. Especially, as I pointed out, the Commonwealth has made it very clear that we will provide all cooperation and in particular the findings of this rapid report that is being undertaken which is so fundamental to that area of inquiry.

CROWE: The Attorney-General, Michelle Rowland is here. You're listening to 702, ABC Radio Sydney. Emma Crowe with you this morning. The Government, the community, wants swift action. The civil rights group say that laws that are rushed through might have unintended or unforeseen consequences for freedom of speech and for democracy. I know you've announced some things you're bringing in. How do you make sure you're moving quickly while ensuring that you strike the right balance?

ROWLAND: It is a matter of balance and it is true that these will be some of the most significant changes to the Commonwealth criminal law in our history. They will be testing the limits of what is legally permissible. But in the end, again, we've got an opportunity as a Parliament, to see immediate change if we work together. That's why I'm urging the entire Parliament to get behind these reforms. They are practical changes which are capable of implementation and also they are workable from a statutory and sentencing perspective as well. So, I would urge all members of Parliament to get behind these changes and to work constructively. And importantly, I want to highlight that whilst this is an area where a lot of work is being undertaken in a condensed period of time, it's not as if this is a government that is starting from scratch. We have had significant progress on legislating hate speech reforms and in other areas, including outlawing doxing. So, we have some of the best experts in this area who are advising, who are assisting with drafting, and importantly, we are taking into account the views of the Jewish community as well. So, this has been a government that has put consultation at its centre. We will be doing that in a condensed period of time, but it is absolutely imperative that we get this done urgently and that we see a package legislated by the Parliament.

CROWE: The Government has committed to putting in Jillian Segel's plan in full. Yesterday you announced some additional measures as details of the Bondi terror attack become clearer. One of the things that has taken a lot of people by surprise, I think, is that the alleged terrorists were a father and a son. You've announced additional measures around the radicalisation of young people. What are they?

ROWLAND: Well, firstly, we should remember exactly as you say that these were radicalised Islamic extremist terrorists. As my colleagues have pointed out, children aren't born radicalised, they become radicalized, and we have a situation where certain groups in our society, certain extremists, are operating just within the law. So, they utilise rhetoric that is below the criminal threshold. They flout the laws about displaying prohibited symbols, saying they were ignorant of the understanding of them being outlawed. But the radicalisation of children at alarming rates is something that needs to be dealt with as well. As I pointed out yesterday, the figures are stark. Of the 120 people who've been convicted of terrorism offences since 2001, 10 of them were children. Your listeners may be shocked to know that today, 17 of the 33 individuals before the courts are actually minors. That is really an unprecedented trend that reflects the rise in radicalisation, but also the relative ease of radicalisation when it comes to online and digitised environments as well. So, we'll be introducing aggravated offences in that regard, because this is an area that is in need for reform, and I would again urge the entire Parliament to get behind these changes.

CROWE: What other changes are on the table when it comes to hate speech? I know there's also some movements on visas and when the government might see fit to cancel a visa.

ROWLAND: My colleague, Minister Burke, will be leading those, and as he's pointed out, he needs to work from the perspective of whether something incites discord in the community and just establishing, for example, that someone has engaged in hate and vilification on its own, which we would find abhorrent, that has been insufficient to meet the threshold. So, those provisions will be changed so that being able to demonstrate that hate and vilification will be a ground for cancelling visas as well. He's also pointed out that if you've got people who've had a history of engaging in hate speech, in vilification or displaying hate symbols, that of itself is going to satisfy the criteria for visa cancellation.

So, again, making sure that we've got laws in place that are capable of being implemented and having the results that we want. You know, one of the areas about displaying hate symbols, that has not been in for a long period of time, but we know that those laws are capable of being flouted by individuals who claim ignorance. They weren't aware that they were outlawed. That will be changing as well. I think the other important point to make for your listeners is on prohibited hate organisations, and we've got organisations like Hizb ut-Tahrir and the National Socialist Network. Now, for a long time, as I've said, they've been able to take hate right below a threshold without going past it. We'll be establishing a new form of a listing framework which will be able to prescribe those kinds of organisations. So, I think that as a package, this represents some of the most substantive changes when it comes not only to hate speech offences for preachers and leaders who promote and threaten violence against protected groups, but also very practical, practical measures that will enable the Minister to exercise that discretion in visa cancellations and also give that power to our authorities when it comes to hate symbols.

CROWE: Michelle Rowland is the Federal Attorney-General. Attorney-General, it seems like a long time ago now, but it's only been a couple of weeks since you referred some of your own expenses claimed on a trip to Perth to the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority. A portion of those expenses were found to be outside the guidelines. How much have you been asked to repay and where are things at there?

ROWLAND: Well, as you said, I received advice from the Independent Authority that a portion of that, for one use two and a half years ago was outside the guidelines. So, I sought advice on that and repaid that amount. The full figure will be publicly released in time. It was around $10,000. Again, I point out this is the point of IPEA. We sought advice so that that could be acted on, and that was.

CROWE: Thanks for some time this morning. Really appreciate it.

ROWLAND: Pleasure.

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